I think others are beginning to see the
gest of what I was saying or eluding to at least. Even though the builder
(or most likely another legal entity or corp.) owns the lot the home is being
constructed on, he is intending to sell that home to someone other than himself
and is technically a manufacture of sorts. He is doing the work for a
profit (or trying to at least). If the logic that the radon system would
not be covered because he was (is) the owner could hold up, I don’t think
the builders would be getting licensed as contractors and using licensed
contractors in all the other areas, since as the owner, he could do all the
work himself with his own hired labor, and no one would have to be
licensed. Of course he would still be held accountable to following the
codes as long as the local authority chose to enforce them (which they are not apparently
required to do even though they have been adopted).
I think this matter should be reviewed by
the states with their legal departments and that AARST should also seek an
opinion as well.
Just my thoughts!
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: International Web Resource
for Radon Professionals [mailto:RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jay Bauder
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 3:20
PM
To:
RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: Re: [RNPROF] Time
Sensitive Opportunity; PLEASE Provide Input on Healthy Peo...
John,
I was involved with the PA-DEP
"Workshops" a few years ago. It brought all sides of the
"RRNC" debate to the table. This is what I learned; Builders
and Realtors have a great big lobby. The Radon Industry, not so
much..
The builders own the property until
settlement.
-Jay
----- Original Message -----
From: John Mallon
To: RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU
Sent: Friday,
April 03, 2009 3:03 PM
Subject: Re:
[RNPROF] Time Sensitive Opportunity; PLEASE Provide Input on Healthy Peo...
I am curious. If
ownership is the State's rationale wouldn't it only apply to a spec home.
If the builder is building a home for a client, the lot and the structure in
progress belong to the client not the builder. Bottom line: The builder is not
the owner.
John Mallon
----- Original Message -----
From: Joshua
Kerber
To: RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU
Sent: Friday,
April 03, 2009 1:16 PM
Subject: Re:
[RNPROF] Time Sensitive Opportunity; PLEASE Provide Input on Healthy Peo...
Phil’s
take on Ohio is right on. The Builder technically “owns” the
home until the final paperwork is signed. I’m not saying I agree
with it, but it’s the legal facts.
Joshua
J. Kerber, MS
Ohio
Department of Health
Bureau
of Radiation Protection
Radon
Licensing Program
246
N. High St. - 7th Floor 35 Bldg.
Columbus,
OH 43215
ph:
(614) 644-2727
fax:
(614) 466-0381
joshua.kerber@odh.ohio.gov
From:
International Web Resource for Radon Professionals
[mailto:RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU] On
Behalf Of David Grammer
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 12:19
PM
To:
RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: Re: [RNPROF] Time
Sensitive Opportunity; PLEASE Provide Input on Healthy Peo...
Phil,
Here
in NJ and in reality.
The
builder is not an occupant of the home therefore not the home owner.
His
ownership is for a purpose of business therefore he is not the finished product
homeowner but he is a vendor selling homes. For the purpose of business ethics
this compromises the consideration that a builder could be ill-motivated when
performing a radon test or mitigation.
David
Grammer
From:
International Web Resource for Radon Professionals [mailto:RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU]
On Behalf Of Phillip H. Jenkins
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 9:34
AM
To:
RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: Re: [RNPROF] Time
Sensitive Opportunity; PLEASE Provide Input on Healthy Peo...
I believe that the situation here
in Ohio is that the law states that you can test, mitigate, whatever, on
property that you own. And, the logic is that the builder owns the
property until it sells. Therefore, the builder can do anything, related
to radon that is, that he/she desires without training, without a license,
etc., just like I can test my own house without a license, but I
can't test someone else's. I can't even talk to someone else about
mitigation, or radon entrance pathways, or dose from radon, without a mitigators
license. So, don't ask me about any of those topics, cause I can't tell
you. ;-) I don't know about other states, but their legislation may
be similar.
Phil
Phillip H. Jenkins, PhD, CHP
Senior Health Physicist
Bowser-Morner, Inc.
Mail: P.O. Box 51 - Dayton, OH 45401
Delivery: 4514 Taylorsville Road - Dayton, OH 45424
Voice: (937) 236-8805 x248
Fax: (937) 233-2024
E-mail: pjenkins@bowser-morner.com
Web: www.bowser-morner.com
From: Terry Howell
[mailto:thowell@RADALINK.COM]
To: RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU
Sent: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 19:42:02
-0400
Subject: Re: [RNPROF] Time
Sensitive Opportunity; PLEASE Provide Input on Healthy Peo...
I
would offer that I don’t think that in most of the licensing states an
amendment would be required. I think that most of the existing rules and
regulations, and laws already have something to the effect of “anyone
performing radon or radon related services for a fee or other
remuneration…. must be licensed (registered or certified)” already
in them. The problem is that just because it is a law, rule, or
regulation does not mean that anyone is required to enforce it. And no
one chooses to enforce it. The question is simply, why?
JMO!
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: International Web Resource
for Radon Professionals [mailto:RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU]
On Behalf Of Smith, Martin
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009
7:18 PM
To: RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: Re: [RNPROF] Time
Sensitive Opportunity; PLEASE Provide Input on Healthy Peo...
I agree
with Terry, this is a great thread. So what’s the next step? It seems
obvious to me, but I am probably not thinking it through correctly.
We have
the ears of most, if not all, of the professional radon community through this
list serv. We have members of CRCPD and EPA also. We probably have the
individuals who crafted the legislation in the few states (or counties of) that
require the installation of PSD systems in new construction.
So how
hard would it be to amend the legislation requiring that the PSD systems by
installed only by a nationally certified (or state certified depending on the
state of course) individuals?
The hard
part was already done. An amendment can’t be so tough…can it?
Moving
forward, using a mit professional should be a requirement in any new
legislation requiring PSD systems in new construction.
But it
needs to go a bit further, as many have already mentioned. We also need an
amendment that would required testing the home upon completion, again by a
nationally certified person, and if it’s 4 or more, make the system
active.
I
realize I am stating the obvious here, and it’s bound to be much more difficult
to accomplish than I am thinking. But we already know what needs to be
done…the real question is, who’s going to do it?
Can
AARST lobby for an amendment in one state and then build from that? We have to
start somewhere. Just pick one and go for it. AARST and EPA joint effort? Add
CRCPD, you have a formidable front.
My
2…
Martin
From:
International Web Resource for Radon Professionals [mailto:RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU]
On Behalf Of Terry Howell
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009
6:29 PM
To: RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: Re: [RNPROF] Time
Sensitive Opportunity; PLEASE Provide Input on Healthy Peo...
I think
you are only partially correct here. I think it is both.
Elevated
levels of indoor radon is not considered a material defect and therefore the
public does not have a leg to stand on, especially the ones that already own
the property or have a binding contract to purchase the property. They
are stuck with only their own negotiating skills as protection.
Until
the science can uphold and the government will take the position that a home
with indoor radon concentrations above some level are unsafe and therefore are
unacceptable for occupancy, nothing is going to change very much.
As to
the data from New Jersey on testing, as long as the “don’t test for
radon here” maps are being utilized, the public will continue to feel
safe if they are in one of those zones and not bother to do anything.
They think their safe just like the buyers of homes with something called radon
whatever built into it.
This is
one of the best threads yet and I hope this dialogue continues. This
problem is fixable but the public and private sectors have to come together in
order to do it.
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: International Web Resource
for Radon Professionals [mailto:RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU]
On Behalf Of James McNees
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009
5:25 PM
To: RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: Re: [RNPROF] Time
Sensitive Opportunity; PLEASE Provide Input on Healthy Peo...
Totally agree with Laraine.
When a majority of the public decides they will no
longer tollerate living in elevated radon, we will have turned the corner on
the radon problem.
The solution is a social marketing problem not
a scientific problem.
Jim McNees
Alabama
--- On Thu, 4/2/09, Koehler.Larainne@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV
wrote:
From: Koehler.Larainne@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV
Subject: Re: [RNPROF] Time Sensitive Opportunity; PLEASE Provide Input on Healthy
Peo...
To: RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU
Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 3:18 PM
People need to
understand that new home buyers DO NOT test their homes
regardless of whether or not they have RRNC installed. Its not that
RRNC discourages testing - that's what NJ thought until they actually
looked at the numbers. In fact, according to a study done by
the
Eastern Regional Radon Training Center for NJ, which requires RRNC in
their Tier 1 areas highest risk areas - the rate of testing for new
homes was about 3 times as high as in Tier 2 but ONLY 15.7%.
Only 5%
of the new homes in TIER 2 tested for radon.
Statewide over the period of the study ( 1999-2003) about 38% of the
real estate transactions included a radon test. The study
did not
evaluate the reasons for it, but some of them are likely to be ; no home
inspector involved in transaction; no real estate agent; new home
contracts are often different than those for existing homes,
So the following is my take on this and does not represent Agency
policy....
Whether or not RRNC is used or is cost effective isn't the relevant
point. The issue is to get EVERY new home to test. If RRNC
is cost
effective builders will use it, if not they will install systems in
homes that test high. Either way we will get risk reduction where we
are only getting a fraction of the reduction now. One
potential way to
get homes tested is for areas that requires a certificate of occupancy
is to require radon levels be below 4 before a final CO is issued.
( that is something that might be marketed to HP 2020) Another way
would be where there are new home warranties make it a condition of the
warranty that the home is tested.
And finally - for those of you looking for work in this slow real estate
market - most of those new homes in your market never had a radon test
done.
L
Larainne Koehler
Radon & Indoor Air Coordinator
Radiation and Indoor Air Branch - 25th Floor
US Environmental Protection Agency - Region 2
290 Broadway
New York, NY 10007-1866
212-637-3745
212-637-4942(fax)
For radon information in New York, please call 1-800-458-1158 ext 27556
or visit http://www.nyhealth.gov/radiation
For radon information in
NJ, please call 1-800-648-0394 or visit
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/rpp/radon/index.htm
Radon & Indoor Air
information is available from the EPA website at www.epa.gov/iaq
FOR UPDATED INFORMATION ABOUT GRANITE COUNTERTOPS VISIT
www.epa.gov/radon AND CLICK ON FREQUENT QUESTIONS
Kevin Stewart
To
Sent by:
RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU
International
cc
Web Resource for
Radon
Subject
Professionals
Re: [RNPROF] Time Sensitive
04/02/2009 02:46
PM
Please respond
to
Kevin Stewart
David,
One point I think I should make here:
In my experience, the EPA people with whom I have worked (Region III and
National) have not claimed that RRNC would work to be an all-sufficient
standalone radon prevention system obviating the need for any additional
work. I am curious what evidence the builder you cite produced to show
how he got that specific impression. The official information I have
seen about RRNC has always recognized that it may provide partial Rn
reduction, but that there was no guarantee of this, and that the focus
was on providing (in theory, at least) a lower-cost alternative to
post-construction installation, an alternative that might get sufficient
reductions if operated passively, but that could be transformed into an
active system should that prove necessary.
Kevin Stewart
Director of Environmental Health
American Lung Association of the Mid-Atlantic
From: International Web Resource for Radon Professionals
[mailto:RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU]
On Behalf Of David Grammer
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 2:04 PM
To: RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: Re: [RNPROF] Time Sensitive Opportunity; PLEASE Provide Input
on Healthy Peo...
Terry,
These are good points.
New Jersey has had a radon hazard sub code in place since 1991.
There is no restriction on who can install the passive piping & the
completed product infrequently works without many fixes.
The list of defects found with this type work is long & the cost to
repair these mistakes usually exceeds the installation cost of a
complete system by a qualified person. Unfortunately for the home buyers
a past Governor of NJ (Jim McGreevy) signed into the radon hazard sub
code law that if followed, the Builders liability was relieved.
This rrnc installation is such a small part of the new construction
overall picture in relation to all of the other components requiring
inspection. Its importance to the construction code officials usually
doesn’t even deserve examination. As an example this could explain how
builders could have used perforated pipe to run a system up thru a house
as the passive vent pipe portion of rrnc without detection.
Tom Kelley heard a builder pled their side of the issue at the new
construction meeting in Washington, DC 2 years ago. This meeting was
specifically for interested parties concerned about radon control in new
construction. In this case multiple home buyers accused the builder of
personally misrepresenting that RRNC was a product designed to control
radon in their new homes and it would actually work as a standalone
component. That builder paid the additional cost for adding fans to the
systems but he could not factor this cost into his building plan since
he believed the USEPA that rrnc was adequate. His complaint was not just
the additional unplanned cost to activate the pipe but he felt that by
misrepresenting the benefit of rrnc his reputation had been damaged with
existing buyers. This damaged reputation transferred from existing home
buyers to future home buyers by word of mouth. The new home buyers were
unhappy when they realized that the builder misrepresented RRNC after
conducting a radon test months after moving into their new home. The
home buyers complained that it was unconscionable to allow then to
expose their families to elevated radon levels & not allowing them to
know the rrnc was only a partial installation. The builder’s real
complaint was he was mislead by the USEPA to expect that rrnc actually
worked. He would have had no problem doing more work to control the
radon in the homes he was building but he was misled into a false sense
of security by the USEPA’s claims of success. He wanted to know why he
was not properly informed about rrnc.
There was also a mitigator there who explained that new construction
rrnc was more expensive to install than radon treatment in an existing
home. He explained that rrnc took several trips to complete & usually a
generator was required since the new homes had no power at the phase the
rrnc is installed. This mitigator also explained that the builders
always had scheduling conflicts such as the sheetrock was already
installed or the framing was incomplete when he arrived. This is a
flawed process that can be improved but not until the USEPA accepts the
reality of the issue. This is not a cheap alternative to radon
mitigation. The material & labor cost is not less than installing a
radon system in an existing home.
David Grammer
From: International Web Resource for Radon Professionals
[mailto:RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU]
On Behalf Of Terry Howell
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 11:25 AM
To: RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: Re: [RNPROF] Time Sensitive Opportunity; PLEASE Provide Input
on Healthy Peo...
Phil, All
Once again you have stated the issues very clearly and correctly.
Thanks again!
What I, and I believe others have been trying to get across for a long
time is that builder installed systems do not work, usually because
whoever was responsible for it knows nothing about what it takes to
actually make a system work, and without that knowledge and experience I
think nothing will ever change in this part of the problem.
I think what is needed is really very simple.
1. Passive radon control systems for
new construction should
only be installed by licensed/certified mitigation professionals.
2. Diagnostic evaluation of the
pressure field extension should
be required at the time rough-in is performed and additional measures
taken as required at that time.
3. A radon test must be performed by a
licensed/certified
testing professional either before occupancy (preferred) or with X days
of occupancy (very problematic).
4. I elevated levels are found, then
the system should be
activated and another test performed, all within X days.
Survey Question: How many states require that
only
licensed/certified be allowed to install radon control systems in new
construction?
Based on all the data we have now I do not agree that all homes should
have active radon systems. Much, much, more data is needed.
Conversely, all homes should be tested and mitigated when elevated
levels are found.
Just my thoughts!
Terry E. Howell
-----Original Message-----
From: International Web Resource for Radon Professionals
[mailto:RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU]
On Behalf Of Phillip H.
Jenkins
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 10:33 AM
To: RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: Re: [RNPROF] Time Sensitive Opportunity; PLEASE
Provide
Input on Healthy Peo...
I am not a mitigator, but an interested observer.
It seems to me
that the caveat associated with RRNC is always "if
installed
correctly." I am willing to believe that
there is benefit to RRNC
"if installed correctly." The question
that I have is "how can we
ensure that RRNC will be installed
correctly?". The stories that
I hear tend to make me believe that the general rule, at
least
today, is that fixing the job that was botched by the
builder
negates any cost savings that RRNC might have
presented. I
sincerely hope that I'm wrong. Further, I tend to
believe that
builders' claims that systems they installed, which in
reality do
nothing to reduce radon, give the buyers/home owners a
false sense
that they don't need to test because the builder took
care of it.
Phil
Phillip H. Jenkins, PhD, CHP
Senior Health Physicist
Bowser-Morner, Inc.
Mail: P.O. Box 51 - Dayton, OH 45401
Delivery: 4514 Taylorsville Road - Dayton, OH 45424
Voice: (937) 236-8805 x248
Fax: (937) 233-2024
E-mail: pjenkins@bowser-morner.com
Web: www.bowser-morner.com
From: Dave Hill [mailto:dhill@SPRUCE.COM]
To: RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU
Sent: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 09:45:06 -0400
Subject: Re: [RNPROF] Time Sensitive Opportunity; PLEASE
Provide
Input on Healthy Peo...
I would also like to point out that if the radon system
"rough-in"
is done correctly, a 14-20 watt fan is all that is
necessary to
make the home "resistant" to radon and get the
benefits Henri is
referring to. That would drop the annual fan operating
cost to
below $20.
Dave Hill
From: International Web Resource for Radon Professionals
[mailto:
RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU]
On Behalf Of Henri Boyea
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:47 AM
To: RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: Re: [RNPROF] Time Sensitive Opportunity; PLEASE
Provide
Input on Healthy Peo...
Jim McNees presents some interesting data, but it seems
to me that
the cost of running a mitigation fan in Alabama would be
more than
offset by the redduction in runtime of the A/C and
de-humidifiers
due to moisture reduction. If I recall correctly, the
study to
quantify moisture reduction showed an average 20-30%
moisture
reduction in homes with the mitigation fan running. This
takes
quite a load off the A/C and de-humidifier, which have
compressors, and therefore use quite a bit of
electricity.
Henri Boyea
Radon Control Products
www.radoncontrolproducts.com
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