From Name
Khudgi

In Michigan as a homeowner I can pull a permit to do ANYTHING TO MY OWN HOME!  That includes electrical, mechanical, plumbing, or building work.  It must past the code inspection, but I can do it myself.  Under the argument that a builder owns the home, why do they require them to have a licensed electrician, plumber, and mechanical contractor pull permits and do the work on homes they are building for sale? If they can do it themselves why would they need any other licensed trade?  In Michigan they cannot do any of that work themselves on homes they are building for sale, RRNC excluded as its not regulated in Michigan. 
Kurt--- On Sun, 4/5/09, Rich Whisler wrote:
From: Rich Whisler Subject: [RNPROF] Time Sensitive Passive/Active IssueTo: RADONPROFESSIONALS@LIST.UIOWA.EDUDate: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 1:50 PM
I appreciate everyone's hard work to have gotten us to where we are today.  Many people from many walks of life.  Everyone trying to help reduce the epidemic of radon induced lung cancer.  Thanks to everyone.  
 
I am not as smart as many of you, nor do I have your responsibilities or credentials.  I am just a mitigator in Chicago trying to do a good job, build a successful business, and reduce lung cancer deaths in my clients homes to the best of my ability.  I install energy efficient, quality radon mitigation systems that deliver indoor radon levels as close to outside levels as possible. I am pretty good at it.      
 
Normally I read the list postings and learn a lot from other people.  The deluge of e-mails on the subject of RRNC and it's conversion into active systems tells me that there is room for my 2 cents. Yes I am going to rock the boat a bit, but I think that before we add on to the compilation of decisions that have gotten us to where we are today, I think it appropriate to evaluate what we are doing now, and whether it is successfully reaching the congressional goal of indoor radon levels as close to outdoor radon levels as
possible.
 
 
Let's just start with the fact that this whole issue is pretty close to the story about the emperor who had no clothes.
 
I might be the unknowing little boy who didn't believe the whole fantasy but here goes.
 
 
Let's start at the beginning with RRNC
 
Its not really radon resistant
 
Its not readily remediated
 
It is just a PVC pipe from under the basement floor to above the roof installed by untrained people, for unwilling builders, as cheap as possible, to sell a home to an unwitting consumer, who is told by the builder and through the endorsement of RRNC by the code officials, and state mandates, and the EPA, that somehow their home is now safe for their family.
 
THE UNWITTING CONSUMER:
 
1) Doesn't know that the pipe under the floor may be clogged up or stuck in the mud
 
2) Doesn't know that the passive system may be attached to the sump pit and thus produce inaccurate and inefficient vacuum pressured should the system be activated.
 
3) Doesn't know that the caulking not only is it probably the wrong caulking product but that it was done in a dirty house under construction and that it probably does not adhere properly to the concrete wall or floor.
 
4) Doesn't know that since radon codes don't require the protection of our systems from nails, screws, and mollies by placing  them in a plumbing wall ,  that there may be any number of leaks in their walls.
 
4) Doesn't know that the plumbers apprentice that put the pipe in,  didn't use the proper glue or primer on the system pipes since  they were never trained to install a radon system's piping, and that at most he has been told it's just like a never pressurized vent stack.
 
IF THE SYSTEM IS CONVERTED INTO AN ACTIVE SYSTEM THROUGH THE ADDITION OF A FAN THEN WE ADD THE FOLLOWING PROBLEMS TO THE LIST
 
5) Doesn't know its probably not properly engineered to create an efficient operating system
 
6) Doesn't know that there may not be room in the attic for the fan upgrade.
 
7) Doesn't know the PVC pipe run in the walls may be pitched improperly to handle simultaneous upward airflow and downward water flow.
 
8) Doesn't know that moving air in a pipe in a wall in the home can create a whooshing noise in the homes walls.
 
9) Doesn't know that the rubber roof flashing is designed to be pulled down over a plumbing stack once only, but that the radon fan installation and future fan changes will all involve pushing the PVC pipe both up and down through the rubber seal which may in fact cause leaking.
 
10) Doesn't know that current passive radon systems do not require a mold and mildew resistant insulation on all pipes that pass through non conditioned air spaces such as garages, exterior walls, and attics.  Or that by adding a fan in the attic and thus lowering the PVC pipe temperatures, that in ten years or so of operation that the temperature differentials between the pvc pipes at soil temperatures and the hot humid non-conditioned attic/garage air may create condensation and mold in their homes.  Please see the attached pictures if you are interested.
 
11) Doesn't know (and neither do most mitigators) that the fans also need to properly insulated if installed in attics.
 
 
AND SINCE MUCH OF THE MITIGATION IS ASSOCIATED WITH REAL ESTATE TRANSACTIONS INVOLVING HOME SELLERS, THAT WE AS AN INDUSTRY ACT MUCH LIKE THE BUILDERS MENTIONED ABOVE, IN THAT MANY DO AS LITTLE WORK AS POSSIBLE AND LEAVE OFF AS MANY COMPONENTS AS POSSIBLE, TO INSTALL THE CHEAP, GENERIC, OVERPOWERED SYSTEM DEMANDED BY A HOME SELLER/BUILDER  TO ENABLE THEM TO SELL THE HOUSE WITH A 3.9pCi/l/L SCORE OR BETTER . 
 
WE CONTINUE TO GROW AN INDUSTRY DESIGNED TO SELL GENERIC-CHEAP TO THE UNWITTING CONSUMER.
 
12) We accept scores of 3.5pCi/l and ignore ALARA
 
13) We underbid each other and deliver cheap instead of good.
 
14) We ignore our clients operating costs.
 
15) We make less money per hour/transaction than any other licensed, skilled trade in America.
 
And this discussion started on a thread about giving builders opportunities to gain more control over radon problems, by allowing/regulating them to install fans on systems that are probably flawed to begin with, but assuredly already well beyond their capacities to get right ???????????????????????????????????
 
PROBLEMS 1-4: Can be addressed through more RN testing and better education of the general public, homebuyers, and local code officials.  RRNC standards could be simplified by eliminating the PVC pipe requirements entirely,  and concentrating on an air permeable layer under every home.
 
Problems 5-11: Can be addressed by agreeing as an industry not to install fans on passive systems or in Attics without proper pipe and fan insulation techniques.  Lets just keep active and passive systems completely separate.
 
PROBLEMS 12-15: Will not go away until our industry disassociates itself from the real estate transaction where it is just about someone else getting your money,  and becomes focused on the homebuyer/owner's family health and safety instead.
 
Last of all there is the money.  A builder is spending money on an air permeable substrate, caulking, and a 70 foot long PVC run from a plumber.  Minimum costs have to be $500 plus.  Properly insulating the piping with an insulation contractor is a minimum $500 more.  A builder needs to add at least 50% to his costs to stay in business so the price of the home just went up from $750 to $2,000 depending on how much work is done or skipped.  Having a licensed mitigator install a fan, recaulk, modify the sump cover, and potentially re-core the concrete at $500-$750 all adds up to more money than a professionally designed and installed radon system from a qualified mitigator. 
 
The builders system will also be energy inefficient due to it's innate design flaws, and thus require a larger fan to generate the same radon scores as a professionally designed system can generate. Consequently the homeowner will be saddled with the liability of increased energy costs potential of $100+/year FOREVER!
 
I know that I am definitely swimming upstream but...
I think the emperor is naked!   
 
 
Rich Whisler
 
Accurate Radon
richw@accurateradon.com
630-876-0800
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